Interview (Part 6): Michael Ballin and Thomas Aguilar

My interview with 2021 Black List writer for their script The College Dropout.

Michael Ballin and Thomas Aguilar wrote the original screenplay “The College Dropout” which landed on the 2021 Black List. Recently, I had the opportunity to chat with with Mike and Tom about their creative background, their script based on a period of time in the life of Kanye West, the craft of screenwriting, and what making the annual Black List has meant to them.

Today Part 6 of a 6-part series to run each day through Saturday, Tom and Mike provide some tips on the screenwriting craft and advice for aspiring screenwriters.

Scott: I think every writer is different. There’s no one right way to do it. To your point, you do need to have that freedom when you’re actually writing. That’s why I tell my students, I say, “Great, you got the outline. Now you’re ready to write, set it over here. Get into the scene, get in touch with the characters, and where are they coming from? A feeling place,” and really, it’s more meditative. It’s like, “Just let it flow.”

That’s the receptive writing. You’ll always be able to do the executive writing and rewrite all that stuff, but you need to get in touch with the characters and let them drive that process.

Thomas: The instinct, letting the instinct flow through.

Scott: Instinct.

Thomas: That’s the hardest thing, though. I feel like in sports, it’s like you know the playbook, but now, it’s instinct. You’re in the play, Tom Brady makes an audible, throws everything out and you gotta trust it.

Scott: That’s why they call it the basketball players are in the zone, right?

Michael: Yeah.

Scott: Steph Curry knocking down 12 three-pointers in one quarter, he’s in the zone.

Let’s talk about characters. How do you go about finding the characters and their voices when you’re developing your stories?

Thomas: In all movies, it’s different. In this movie, we did have the luxury of being able to see interviews.

These were public personas, so you were able to do that and tap in. For us, if you want to get a voice right, it’s about immersing yourself and diving into it full into the deep end of things and understanding how a character expresses themselves.

Michael: It’s like a little psychology of figuring out…We use Tom’s sociology background on this, because everyone’s different. Who they are, who their voice is, is different from us.

We actually did have a boss on our first show teach us, “Every character is speaking a certain way.” This was in TV, so on the weekdays, we were getting all the lessons from that first writers’ room from an Emmy-winning writer Carol Flint on ER or Connie Burge who created Charmed in the room.

We would use lessons on the weekend to work on this, and one of those was voice, who is this lead character? Could you cover his name and know it’s him? We try to take that approach with every character.

Scott: That must be a nice feeling that those dollars and time you spent in college, you could at least say, “Well, I amortized that, the sociology thing there, because those are key questions.”

What’s their educational background? What’s the social-economic background? What’s their religious background, ethnic background? What type of music do they listen to? All that’s going to influence the way they talk.

Thomas: Yeah. All of those things, every single experience we go through affects us on different levels and, I think, creates a voice.

Scott: Mike’s experience, too. He had a major in literature, so he’s learned storytelling in a more of a classic way, I guess you’d say. There you go, the benefits of a college education!

Michael: It did. I will tell everyone to go, especially if you’re not sure, because I think that’s a lot of people that aren’t sure. If you can, if you’re into the school, do it, but if not, make your own college curriculum outside of it with reading and curiosity.

Scott: You’re right. Nowadays, there’s so many options out there, free stuff online, that if you’re really serious about it, you can do it.

When people ask Franklin Leonard, they say, “How do I learn the craft of screenwriting?” He always points them toward that quote that I came up with years ago which is, “Watch movies, read scripts, write pages.” You could do those three things, and you could add, “Live life.”

Michael: We were just talking about that today, living life is important, because I think early on, we were so dedicated and stuff, but as you get into it, you have to take a break. Not everything you write is going to come out of pure passion, so you got to be able to stop and come back because it’s a marathon. Springsteen said in his book, you have to learn the craft. It’s craftsmanship. We’ve been doing it for nine years. It doesn’t feel like it, but it’s nine years. So don’t forget to live.

Scott: Way back when, you were making these short films, so I’ve got to ask you, are you at all thinking down the road like, “We want to direct?”

Michael: 100 percent.

Thomas: Yeah. It’s how we came to this. We write, and our hope is to direct.

Michael: We’ve learned from some directors on set on TV shows, and you’re like, “OK, they’re teaching you things,” and you’re like, “I think we could have the confidence to pull this off.”

We have that background, but the thing we’ve learned is that back then, we tried to do everything. We were the caterer, we were the line producer. Now, once we saw it on a real TV set, we understood the true role of the director.

Thomas: They get to focus on a tone, or a particular moment, and this scene’s purpose, etc. Before, it was like, “Do rehearsal. Set up catering. Do the lights. There’s a fire. Run over it, put it out.” All at once. It was impossible.

Scott: I’m going to make this pledge. When your first movie, opening night, I’m going to show up, and shake your mom’s hand and say, “Congratulations, these two guys you were taking to the movies when they were just little dudes, they did it.”

Michael: She’s always asking when we’re going to the “Oscars.” I’m like, “Mom, get ready.”

Scott: There you go. Don’t forget to thank mom.

Thomas: Absolutely.

Michael: For sure. Love you Mom.

Scott: Finally, one last question and I’m sure you’ll be starting to be asked this question. What advice do you offer to people who come up to you and say, “Hey, I want to learn how to be a screenwriter. How do I go about doing that? How do I break into the business?” What’s your basic advice to people?

Michael: There is much different advice, that I think we’ve come to learn is advice is only one part of it.

The most important thing is awareness of who you are, what you can bring. We always try to get one percent better every day, and that has guided us.

Thomas: When we were growing up, we were like, “What’s the path? What do I get to do? What boxes do I have to check?” And it’s really about doing everything you can possibly do. Read scripts, write pages, and all those sorts of things.

All those times you feel, “Am I doing the right thing?” Whether that’s taking an internship, being an assistant, or even writing itself. You can be this or that, or none of those things, as long as you’re trying to push forward to get one percent better like Mike said, you’re doing the right thing.

Michael: And if that’s not working, the ultimate you should always have is that “Break-in-case-of-emergency script.”

The thing that you can turn to when, “Everything’s on fire, I haven’t got a job in nine months, I’m struggling, what do I do…? You break it.” That’s what this script was for us, and we always have that one we’re working on that’s different. Anytime we feel complacent, we break out that new script and try something new.

For Part 1 of the interview, go here.

Part 2, go here.

Part 3, go here.

Part 4, go here.

Part 5, go here.

Mike and Tom are repped by:

Mike Goldberg, Kyle Loftus, Adam Perry (APA)
Matt Ochacher, Michael Pelmont (New Wave Entertainment)

Twitter: @MichaelBallin, @Thomasraguilar

For my interviews with dozens of other Black List writers, go here.