Interview (Part 6): Filipe Coutinho and Ben Mehlman
My interview with 2021 Black List writers for their script Whittier.
My interview with 2021 Black List writers for their script Whittier.
Filipe Coutinho and Ben Mehlman wrote the original screenplay “Whittier” which landed on the 2021 Black List. Recently, I had the opportunity to chat with Filipe and Ben about their creative background, their script, the craft of screenwriting, and what making the annual Black List has meant to them.
Today in Part 6 of a 6-part series, Ben and Filipe talk about what it meant for their script “Whittier” to make the 2021 Black List and provide some thoughts on the craft of screenwriting.
Scott: Let’s jump to December 13, last year, that Monday morning when the annual Black List rolled out. How was that experience?
Ben: We were talking with Matt [Rosen] about trying to make the list. It was the first time we had a rep in earnest really going after this with us and we would all do our best but it was still a crapshoot.
If you asked Filipe or I on December 12th if we thought it was possible to get 15 votes and be tied 12th for the year we would’ve thought you were crazy. We just wanted to make it on at all.
Filipe: The funny thing was that Matt unfortunately got struck with COVID that day, so he was having a terrible time health-wise. Ben was on the East Coast and also sick. And I didn’t sleep the night before and was feeling very overwhelmed. It was hard not to have any expectations, even if I kept telling myself I didn’t have them. Ultimately, I just wanted the whole thing to be over so that I could stop feeling anxious. Of course, the process took way longer than expected. The Black List did the announcement through videos on their YouTube channel. Broken down in categories, one at a time, and with a 30-minute break between them. Needless to say, “Whittier” came at the very end [laughs].
But when it happened, it was incredible. We love this story. So much. And we’ve written, I don’t know, more than 20 drafts. We had times when we’re like, “I never want to see this again. I never want to read these lines again.” Then someone gives you a good note and you go back into it. It’s a lot of hard work.
It’s good to be appreciated and recognized for your work and knowing that people care.
Scott: Frankly, it assures me that there’s no way you can game the system. To me, the fact that you did get as many votes as you did suggests very strongly that people responded to the material. It’s not easy material. It’s 130 some odd pages. It’s complex. You did something that made people notice it.
Ben: The best compliment we ever get, which we pretty consistently have gotten, is people being like, “We didn’t realize it was this long.” They read it and they’re just like, “It flew by.”
Scott: That’s a great compliment.
Filipe: Our dream– or maybe mine, I don’t know if I can include you in that, Ben– is to have a career like Eric Roth. Every script he writes is like 150 pages and up. That would be wonderful.
Ben: I just want to tell the best story possible. Doesn’t matter if it’s 90 pages or 130 pages. But man I do love Eric Roth.
Scott: Now, I can add a third thing, that you want a career like Eric Roth’s. I got these all down here, things I’m wishing for you.
[laughter]
Scott: Let’s focus on writing together. What’s the process like? Do you sit in a room together? Do you do remotely? Do you write scenes individually and pass them back and forth? How do you write?
Ben: For us, it’s about cracking the story. We’ll usually crack the story and craft the outline together. Whether that is in person or screen sharing if in person isn’t possible. Then, we’ll assign pages. So I may take the first five cards and Filipe takes the second five and once we’re both done we will swap pages. This is where revisions mode is helpful. We do our visions using revisions mode and basically send back a redlined version to the other person.
We then read the changes, approve whatever changes we agree with and chronologically decide on how to handle the rest. So, by the time we settle on any singular scene, it’s already been rewritten two or three times.
Scott: Do you have assessments like, “Filipe’s better with dialogue than I am, or I’m better with character ID” or are you in pretty much simpatico in terms of your understanding of your respective creative skill sets?
Ben: I think we’re pretty simpatico or what would you say, Filipe?
Filipe: Yeah, we’ve never divided scenes based on their content. In “Whittier’’, for example, there was a scene that I really wanted to write and I just asked, “Hey Ben, do you mind if I write this one? I think I have a really good feel for it.” Then, Ben will do the same thing. We try to respect what the other person is feeling. We’ve never got to a point where none of us wanted to write a scene, which is a good place to be.
Ben: I’ve never realized that, that’s wild.
Scott: That speaks to your breaking story. Every scene’s got to hit that level.
Ben: Exactly. For anything, it’s also what’s right for the moment. To make up an example, Filipe loves Joy Division. He has a tattoo of Joy Division. If there was a scene where someone was monologuing over Joy Division, I’d be like, “Filipe, you should write this scene.”
One of the first scenes in “Whittier” takes place in City Hall during a city council meeting. I’m a bit of a political junkie, so Filipe was like “You like this, wanna take a stab?” It’s not as simple as one of us is better at action sequences, so they write all the action sequences. It’s much more about what we feel in the moment.
Filipe: To be fair, the autopsy scene was another one. I told Ben, “Look, I’ll do it, but I really don’t want to see a bunch of pictures of dead bodies and insides and stuff like that.” I know Ben, who comes from the Cronenberg school, has seen it all, so I’m like, “You know what? You should lean into this.”
Ben: Oh, I’m a very sick person, so of course I said yes.
Scott: Both of you have directed short films. I’m assuming that at some point you’re thinking you want to direct something together?
Ben: Yeah. We’ve thought about it. Also, what I think works with us is that we also have our solo stuff that we work on as well. It’s a very open relationship in that way.
Filipe and I were talking about directing something together and then COVID hit.
Filipe: I mean, that’s the goal. We really want to direct. It’s the ultimate way of telling a story at the end of the day. Ben and I come from such different backgrounds, and it’s interesting to see where they align. I think when they mesh, something really great comes out. I think directing would be no exception.
Ben: Yeah. Filipe has this really cool video series that you should definitely throw a link up for. It’s an awesome “Lessons From the Screenplay” style series that he’s been working on with a really talented woman, Mónica Freitas
And I’ve been doing some music videos. I did one last summer and just finished another one with Ian, who introduced us. I love doing those as well, it’s such a fun creative outlet
Scott: That actually leads to the final question here: What key words of advice can you offer to someone who’s trying to learn the craft and break into the business?
Filipe: I think that you are your foremost champion and enemy. I think things don’t work when you stop believing. I’m a firm believer that if you keep at it, eventually it will happen. If you do the work, if you have the passion, if you sacrifice a bit, then it’ll happen.
Whittier is the perfect example of this. We never abandoned that script because we really believe in it. People will tell you, “Oh, but you wrote this a while back” or whatever. No, if you love the story that you’re working on, just keep pushing it. Push it, and push it, and push it.
Ben: I think Filipe would agree, that’s not saying to only work on one project. We’ve worked on so many things together and individually since “Whittier.” There’s also a weird thing that happens sometimes where a certain project continues to pop back up from the dead like “Whittier” did throughout the years.
For me, it’s important to understand that the process of writing is the job and you should find a way to love the process. That doesn’t mean you have to always love it but you should at least like it a lot of the time. A lot of writing is excavating, whether that’s through your own mind, through research, through scripts or through movies.
Another important thing, as you get deeper into your career or pursuit of the career, find a way to protect your fandom for the medium. In theory, you wanted to do this because you love it so much. That doesn’t mean taking it to a toxic level, but finding ways to protect the part of you that fell in love with this in the first place. If you protect that, your love for writing and creating will never die.
For Part 1 of the interview, go here.
Part 2, go here.
Part 3, go here.
Part 4, go here.
Part 5, go here.
Ben and Filipe are repped by Matt Rosen at Rain Management.
Twitter: @filipefcoutinho, @Ben_Mehlman
For my interviews with dozens of other Black List writers, go here.