Interview (Part 5): Grace Sherman

My interview with the 2018 Nicholl Fellowships in Screenwriting winner.

Grace Sherman wrote the original screenplay “Numbers and Words” which won a 2018 Nicholl Fellowship in Screenwriting. Recently, I had the opportunity to chat with Grace about her background, her award-winning script, the craft of screenwriting, and what winning the Nicholl has meant to her.

Today in Part 5, Grace talks about her Nicholl experience and answers some writing craft questions.

Scott: As I was saying earlier, you sustained this central tension. Is he going to go the fatalism path and give in to his anger, which would be he wants revenge against Nate?

Now, Nate has turned his life around and got a young wife and a child, and is willing to acknowledge his mistakes that he made. Or, is DeMarcus going to…He has a relationship with Beth now, a romantic relationship.

One of my favorite scenes is when he writes the math equations on her body after they’ve made love. Then also, too, he is being offered an opportunity. Once it’s discovered that he solved this thing, he’s offered an opportunity to make money, teach, whatever.

He got this path, but he’s still so consumed by his rage that he actually goes and confronts Nate. You push it right to the edge there. Was that always there in your thinking, that you’re going to have that scene with Nate? How soon or how did that moment emerge into your thinking that you’re going to have to push him that far?

Grace: There had to have been something. On my [laughs] journey of teaching myself about story and all that, I came across several things that you do need that…In that final act or whatever, what path is your character going to choose? I knew there had to be something.

Before, I thought, “He’s going to be released, start to rebuild his life, have a relationship with Beth, and just get straight back into society.” I knew there had to be something else that he was struggling against that he was facing.

Nate brought all this into their lives, all this anguish and abuse, and he got away with it. He’s been out free, rebuilt his life, and DeMarcus has been stuck in a prison cell for 20-something years because of that event.

Again, he doesn’t have his math anymore to take him out of that. Yes, he is hyper-focused on revenge and getting back at him and doesn’t care at that point. He’s had the worst, so if he goes back to prison, whatever. He doesn’t care at that point.

Scott: I call it, in my language system, the Final Struggle, which really is in the external world of the plot, the culmination, in some respects, of the narrative. Underneath it, it’s like they’re asking that question or answering that question — Who am I?

He pulls back and actually does not exact revenge on Nate. Later on, he has a scene with some young boys. He’s been cajoled by Clint into doing some sort of work with troubled youths.

This is that thing we go back to, the talking early, where he’s been provided the words now, or he has the words now that he’s willing to say. This is “Numbers and Words.”

Here is the words he says, “We’re taught as boys to respond a certain way in the face of tragedy. Just fight. Never let anyone see our hearts. What I wished I would’ve known or what I wished I could’ve believed is that I didn’t always have to fight, didn’t have to always be on guard, and, if I just put my fists down for one minute, the world may not open up and swallow me whole.”

That speaks in part to that fear you were talking about earlier. That’s a really important moment for him, isn’t it?

Grace: Yes, it was. Again, that’s been the other part of him, that fear to always have your fists up. With the young men that he’s telling this to, they verbally spar back and forth with each other. He’s thinking “You’re somebody else I have to fight.”

Then there’s a moment when DeMarcus says, “OK, we’re not going to do this anymore. Let me approach you a different way.” It goes back to a conversation that he had with Clint when Clint’s pushing him and he’s asked them, “What did you need to know as a young man for you to make different choices?”

At that time, DeMarcus ignored him, doesn’t think much of it. Then it comes back again at that moment when he is speaking to the group. He wants to help these young men do something different.

Scott: Beth contextualizes this is in a very nice way to round out the whole hero’s journey. She says, “And the hero returns from the adventure to share his wisdom with the world. All will be enriched by his experience, but not all will know that while his mind helped him achieve the quest, it was his heart that showed him the way.”

To me, again, it’s that duality you’ve got of Numbers and Words. The numbers in a way, broadly speaking, representing the head. The words, at least in the context of this story, more representing the heart.

By the end, end he is able to meld those two together and move toward some semblance of balance or unity. Does that seem like a fair representation of the arc of his journey?

Grace: Definitely, exactly. He had that need to solve the problem that set him off on the journey. Brilliant with his mind, but he had to get to a place of vulnerability in order to really fulfill his potential.

He’s able to do that with his relationship with Beth, with Clint, with the young men, and even with Nate at the end.

Scott: It’s a powerful script and quite relevant for our age. Let’s jump to [laughs] your Nicholl experience. What was that like?

Grace: [laughs] It was great. I had a great time. I enjoyed it a lot. It’s just interesting. With that type of competition, you never know how it’s going to play out. You hope to win, but when you actually do win, you’re like, “Wow. Really?”

Things moved so very fast, but it’s been great. Everybody’s been encouraging. I’ve had good responses to the script, so it’s been great. I’ve enjoyed it.

Scott: What is the status of the script at this point?

Grace: Right now, I’ve been talking with different producers who like it, are interested in it. We’re just deciding the best place for it.

Scott: You want to find a producer who really gets it and is passionate about it. That would be my unsolicited word of advice. Did you get representation out of this, too?

Grace: I did, a manager, yes. The Gotham Group.

Scott: Congratulations on that. Excellent. Thanks so much for opening up about the script and delving into it. I really enjoyed that conversation. Let’s move to some craft questions for you if you don’t mind. How do you come up with story ideas?

Grace: It’s a variety of places. It could be a news story. It could be a memory, an emotion, I don’t know, a conversation. It’s just a variety of different places that invoke a response in me. Then I think, “What would be the best way to convey this?”

Tomorrow in Part 6, Grace provides advice to aspiring screenwriters.

For Part 1 of the interview, go here.

Part 2, here.

Part 3, here.

Part 4, here.

For my interviews with every Nicholl Fellowships in Screenwriting winners since 2012, go here.

For my interviews with 53 Black List writers, go here.