Interview (Part 4): Joey Clarke Jr.

My interview with the 2018 Nicholl Fellowships in Screenwriting winner.

Joey Clarke Jr. wrote the original screenplay “Miles” which won a 2018 Nicholl Fellowship in Screenwriting. Recently, I had the opportunity to chat with Joey about his background, his award-winning script, the craft of screenwriting, and what winning the Nicholl has meant to him.

Today in Part 4, Joey and I talk about his use of setups and payoffs in the script “Miles,” and how important they are in writing a screenplay.

Scott: You’ve got several setups and payoffs. There’s a bit with the Chevy Chevelle. There’s a really wonderful bit with the purple ducks. In fact, that’s one of my favorite scenes, just visually. I saw that in my head, where the ducks are flying. Again, you use that image to touch base with the characters, thread that through.

Let’s talk about that a little bit in terms of the importance of those setups, payoffs, callbacks, and whatnot. How important is that to you in your writing? Why do you think that’s so valuable in a screenplay, to have those elements in play?

Joey: It creates a sense that the whole thing is one, the whole movie is…I don’t know. I don’t know a good answer, really, why it’s important. I just know inherently that it is. [laughs] Everything that you put in there needs to be in there for a reason.

There’s these small, little things that I put in in the beginning, like Nolan drawing. It starts with Nolan drawing just because I’m building Nolan’s character. Then, what is he drawing? I’m later taken to get to the point where I have that duck scene. While I’m writing the duck scene, I realize I can set that up a lot earlier and make that for a lot bigger moment by having him draw a duck.

Scott: See, that’s the beauty of writing. You love that when you’re moving along and you hit on something, like, “OK, so I’m going to have this purple duck in this train full of ducks. Oh, wait, I can go back and set that up.”

Joey: I do that a lot. There’s a lot where something comes to me on page 63 or whatever, and I think, “That can double in page 17.” I’ll jump back and figure out how to work it back into this. I do that a lot.

Scott: That’s awesome. When it works, it’s just a really, really rewarding thing.

There’s a scene that you had where Courtney and Samuel, who are the foster parents, visit Emma, who is actually Riley’s and Nolan’s aunt who’s been struggling with her own thing because she’s culpable, in some respects, for the situation that happened with the father and legally even.

That meeting of those people when Courtney and Samuel are out trying to find the kids and they meet in Emma’s apartment in two different worlds. There’s conflict borne out of their individual and collective frustration and fear about the kids.

That conversation, as I was reading that scene, struck me as it would be a really hard scene to write because you’re talking about…They’re on each other about drug addiction and Courtney survived cancer. That could have so easily slipped into melodrama, but it doesn’t.

I was wondering whether you struggled with that, “How far can I go with this in terms of its emotionality?”

Joey: Thank you, I appreciate it. I’ve written that scene probably more than any other scene in the script. Yeah, I did struggle with it. I’m sure at some point it did read as melodramatic and then I’ve just cut the fat down to where it’s a pretty slim scene, still or it is, at this point.

It’s definitely hard because they’re both…Emma is obviously aware that she’s not in [laughs] the greatest shape of her life. She doesn’t want to admit that to these people who just showed up at her door, so she’s trying to protect herself and stand up for herself.

The foster parents have messed up, too. The kids slipped away. They’re both trying not to admit their faults and blame the other one, but they’re aware that they have messed up.

Scott: That’s what I thought was so interesting about it. There’s a lot of I guess you’d call it psychology psychological projection. They’re projecting their own sense of culpability as anger toward the other person. Then, by the end, they hit a point of being honest enough, with each other and the whole scene reads that way. I thought it was very well written.

I imagine that what you said was how it was for you. You wrote it a lot, and then kept cutting it back, scaling it back and tightening it up.

Joey: Yeah.

Scott: There’s a nifty twist, too, at the end of the story regarding who ends up with whom. In terms of Miles, I’m reminded of that old saying in Hollywood about their movie endings, which is, “Give the audience what they expect,” which has set them up for defeat. Then “give them what they want,” which is, we want the kids with the dog.

They end up with the dog. That makes the surprise that much more dramatic and emotionally satisfying. Did you always know that they were going to end up with the dog, or did you, at some point, think, “Nah, I think maybe not”?

Joey: No, I always knew they’d get the dog. [laughter] There has to be… There are movies that are completely depressing and don’t have redemption at the end, but I wanted to end on a hopeful note. That was always going to be where it ended.

If the timeline continued, you don’t know exactly if it would stay hopeful. I wanted to end right there where there’s several possibilities of what could happen and you can choose who they go with or who you want them to go with if you have a preference, and keep the dog. That’s the goal, right?

Scott: I thought that part was very mature, that ending. It spawns those water cooler conversations. “Do they end up with Emma?” “Do they go back to the foster parents?” “Does the mom become better?”

Really, it is a hero’s journey, a heroine’s journey. Campbell talks about how the hero goes on a journey and then returns home a transformed individual. The whole point, really, of the hero’s journey is that transformation process.

You’ve got this lovely story where Riley, along with Nolan and Miles, ends up in the exact same spot where the story begins, which is the fishing hole. You’ve got that circle all the way back.

How would you say that, after her heroine’s journey, she’s changed, her transformation?

Joey: At least, I hope it comes across that she has accepted her role of Nolan’s parental figure, if you will. She’s grown up a little bit more. At some point, she stops calling him names, and she starts… I very subtly put it in. She starts calling him “Buddy,” which is what her dad had called him. I hope it comes across that she is now accepting him as more her brother rather than just a responsibility that she has to have with him. She steps forward in that. I hope she comes to terms with her mom’s not a terrible person. That’s what the tree is supposed to be there for.

Scott: The tree, that’s a nice touch.

Joey: She’s not going incredibly far in her hero’s journey. It’s very small steps forward.

Scott: She does, thankfully, have an opportunity to cry, because you just feel that she deserves that.

Joey: Yeah.

Tomorrow in Part 5, Joey shares what the experience has been after winning the Nicholl Award and answers some writing craft questions.

For Part 1 of the interview, go here.

Part 2, here.

Part 3, here.

Joey is repped by Fourward.

For my interviews with every Nicholl Fellowships in Screenwriting winners since 2012, go here.

For my interviews with 53 Black List writers, go here.