Go Into The Story Interview (Part 5): Jack Epps

My talk with the co-writer of Top Gun, Legal Eagles, The Secret of My Success.

Today in Part 5, Jack talks about being a professor at the University of Southern California School of Cinematic Arts and why film school.

Scott: Let’s jump into this other part of your life: Teaching. You started teaching at UCLA Extension. Did you continue when your career was zooming or did you take a break?

Jack: I taught for about two or three years and then my career started to take off. At that point, I just didn’t have the time, but I gained a lot from the experience. To know something, teach something. I think that’s really true. I had to teach people how to write screenplays so I had to dig deeper and really get to the bottom of how storytelling and screenwriting worked. I developed a lot of my own theories. And the writing improved greatly because of teaching.

Scott: Now you’re Chair of the John Wells Division of Writing for Screen and Television at the University of Southern California, School of Cinematic Arts, which is arguably the most prestigious institution of its type in the United States.

There’s really no better person to ask this question than you: Why film school? Given the long odds for financial success for someone working in the entertainment industry, particularly as a screenwriter or TV writer, what’s your pitch to students about considering film school?

Jack: I think it’s a really good question and it’s a question students should ask themselves before applying to film school. One of the first questions to ask is do you have to have passion to work in the motion picture industry? Just start from there. It’s not easy. There are easier jobs to get but if it’s something you have to do ‑‑ with me, it was something I had to do ‑‑ then go for it 100 percent.

Why film school? Because the majority of people who come out to Hollywood to work in the business, don’t. I don’t think it’s .001 percent find work in the business. It’s maybe even less than that, because to invent the wheel and figure out the craft of writing or directing by yourself is a huge task. You’ve got to figure how it works, how you break in and you have to do it on your own — without any connections. Very hard to do — but people do it. Just not a lot.

With screenwriting, it took me 15 years from the time I got the bug to getting a movie made. I’m very analytical, so it’s part of my DNA to take things apart and figure out how they work. And I’m still figuring stuff out. Or, you go to film school and study with professional screenwriters, to learn the art and craft of screenwriting. You get the advantage of their 20 or 30 years of experience in how to break a story and write a screenplay or a pilot. It’s still not going to be easy, but you’re at least got a fighting chance.

The percentage of people that go into the business from film school are appreciably higher and their success rate is appreciably higher because they are basically short‑cutting a very long process of figuring it out by yourself which doesn’t usually offer positive results.

Scott: That’s a very cogent answer to that question. I think you’re right. You didn’t even mention, with USC for example, the networking opportunities. The peer group that you have as they go up and ascend in the business. I’m sure that’s a benefit to students too.

Jack: Part of what you get in film school is a cohort a talented people taking classes together and creating material — screenplays, pilots, webseries. Whether it’s USC, whether it’s DePaul, you’re creating resources and a community. This gives you the opportunity to network with people who will succeed. As long as you’re not a jerk and you’re respectful and you’re helping, they will pull you along. There is a networking part of it. There’s no question about it. In addition, film schools have programs to help place students in internships. USC has a huge working alumni base which helps students get their start after graduation. It’s called the Trojan Mafia. So there is a lot of support in film school that is hard to do on your own.

So, it’s not just, “I’m going to learn a craft,” but you’re educating yourself too. You’re becoming more sophisticated. Your tastes are becoming more sophisticated. Your sense of what you’re thinking about and the levels that you’re working at are growing.

I had an interesting experience recently. I had a student in my office and the student was complaining because one teacher was saying to do something one way and the other teacher was saying to do the same thing a different way. My response was, “That’s fabulous. Think about it. You’re being told there is not just one way to do something. You’re getting two different approaches. So why don’t you try one, then try the other, or make up your own.” There’s no one way to this business. There’s no one way everything works. I think that’s why ultimately you have to pull together the knowledge and make it your own — how does it work for you?

Scott: Great advice and also a nice segue into your book, “Screenwriting is Rewriting: The Art and Craft of Professional Revision”. There probably is no other form of writing that is “writing is rewriting” than screenwriting. Those who work in the business are just constantly having to do that. What inspired you to write the book?

Jack: Several things. I believe the success of my career was partially due to the fact that Jim and I were rewriters. On our very first script, we did five drafts before we felt it was ready to send to town. Not good enough. We can do better. Do another draft.

Every project I’ve been on, I’ve done major rewrites. Multiple rewrites before we would send a draft to the producers or director. Rewriting is something that doesn’t get taught a lot. Everyone talks a lot about how to write a screenplay — the first draft. That’s nice, you’ve written a screenplay. Pat yourself on the back. What you have is basically a draft of something, but you don’t have a finished product. A lot of young writers think, “I’ve written a script. Let’s go make this. And don’t change a word!”

No — it’s not going to get made because it probably needs a lot of work. Scripts are complicated, complex and it’s hard to get everything right and focused on the first pass. There’s so many moving parts to a screenplay. Everything has to be perfectly aligned and working together. Each beat, each scene, each line of dialog, the relationships, the way that the structure is told, must enhance and focus on that main character’s story.

So, that’s a long way of saying that my inspiration for writing the book was to share my experience and approach to rewriting with young writers. I also created the Rewriting Class at USC, and wanted to try to capture that we do in my class in book form.

Scott: You start the book with a quote from Robert Towne, the renowned screenwriter, director, script doctor, “Writing is creating something out of nothing. Rewriting is creating something out of what is there.” The interesting thing that jumps out at me about that quote is the idea that rewriting is also creating. Could you maybe speak to that a bit?

Jack: What is really hard is that you have a draft and an intention of what you wanted to write when you started. Now, you’ve finished your draft. It may be what you intended or it may not be. A great deal about screenwriting is figuring out what you actually have instead of what you think you have. Rewriting is the process is of getting closer to your original intention. So, what Robert is saying is you have a something, but now you need to continue to bring new ideas and dimension to what is already there. As you dive into your rewrite, you’re continuing to create — taking this document to the next level and adding layers.

Tomorrow in Part 6, Jack answers some questions about the current state of the film and TV business.

For Part 1, go here.

Part 2, here.

Part 3, here.

Part 4, here.

For more information on Jack’s book “Screenwriting is Rewriting: The Art and Craft of Professional Revision,” go here.