Go Into The Story Interview: Ben Jacoby

My conversation with the screenwriter whose credits include The First Omen and The Whisper Man.

I have an email chain with Ben Jacoby stretching back to July 2013 when he first contacted me about his first movie, a low-budget project based on an original script he’d written. He was excited to share the news with me because he’d been a longtime Go Into The Story follower. Over the years, Ben would reach out to me with his latest gig as he methodically moved his way up the screenwriting ladder.

For several years, Ben has lived and worked in Hollywood repped by CAA and Lit Entertainment Group. His screenwriting credits include The First Omen and the upcoming The Whisper Man.

I interviewed Ben in 2015. Here is that conversation.

Scott: As I understand it you were born in New York City. Is that right?

Ben: Yes, born and raised.

Scott: How did you find your way into writing as an interest?

Ben: I’ve always gravitated to the arts, and been completely obsessed with movies pretty much as far back as I can remember. I went through a lot of artistic stages growing up, always had a different interest. Painting for a while, music for a while. I tried to do music professionally in New York after college, writing and recording songs and playing out with a band. But I eventually realized I enjoyed the composing a lot more than the performing.

So, I retreated. I wrote prose fiction which I hadn’t done since high school. And I suddenly remembered how much I loved it. I wrote a novel, and even though it’s pretty much unreadable, it was important for me because it helped me prove to myself just that I could do it — write something long form.

The next idea I had felt better-suited for a movie. So, I tackled screenwriting format, and it just felt right, mainly because I’ve always been such a movie guy.

Scott: Let’s talk about that obsession with movies. Do you remember some films when you were a youth which inspired you?

Ben: Sure. When I was younger, the standard fare that any child of the ’80s loved. Raiders of the Lost Ark, Ghostbusters, Die Hard, and Stripes were all amazing. I remember hitting adolescence though and something happened, I started seeing movies differently. I watched 2001, and other movies, like The Godfather, and Goodfellas, and it was like a whole new world opening up to me. I thought, movies can be art, they can say something, be challenging, not just fun entertainment. They can take you somewhere else. That’s when I started getting into Kubrick, Scorsese, the Coen brothers. As a New Yorker, Woody Allen and Sidney Lumet were both huge for me too.

Scott: That’s interesting you played music. I did that for a while, too. What was the name of your band?

Ben: Oh, we had many names.

Scott: Many names. [laughs]

Ben: Yeah, that was the problem, many names, many members. It was kind of like “Spinal Tap.” Drummers imploding on the chair, and new members replacing them all the time. I worked at a recording studio, too for a while — the Hit Factory in New York, when it was still a recording studio. Now it’s a condo.

Scott: Did you go to college?

Ben: Yeah, I went to University of Rochester, upstate New York.

Scott: Take any writing classes there?

Ben: I was an English major, music minor. I didn’t really take any creative writing classes, but I always had an interest in that. I took a couple of film classes, but not as part of a major. A lot of the students signed up because they thought they were going to be throwaway classes, and honestly most of them were. Things like “Gangster Movies, “ and “Scorsese Movies.” I mean, fun, they were a lot of fun, but not too challenging.

There was one much more film-schooly class I took. We watched The Shining, no joke, every single time the class met that semester. And then talked about a different aspect of it each day. That was fun too though.

Scott: You said you started off writing a novel. How old were you when you wrote that?

Ben: Mid‑20s or so.

Scott: It was after college.

Ben: Yeah.

Scott: The very first screenplay you wrote, as I understand it, attracted some attention. What’s the backstory on that?

Ben: I was reading a lot of non-fiction then, and I discovered Howard Zinn, “A People’s History of the United States.” He gave this very brief mention of an event during the Great Depression, a coal miners’ movement in Pennsylvania, where the miners were out of work, and essentially broke onto the coal corporation’s property and mined it for themselves. At first just to cook food and keep warm in the winter.

Eventually these out-of-work miners ended up building a mini-empire, and became wealthier and more powerful than the actual coal companies. I read this and I just thought, this has to be a movie. So, I did a lot of research and I wrote a fictionalized account of that event.

Scott: And what happened with that script?

Ben: Eventually, nothing. But it was a great learning experience. It got me a manager, and we got a producer attached, and it went out around town to a few buyers. But it fizzled. Honestly, I wasn’t ready for it to sell. It was my first screenplay and I really just didn’t know what I was doing. I realized that if I’m going to do this seriously I have to take a step back and really learn the craft. Read screenplays, study movies from a writer’s perspective, and learn how to become a storyteller.

Scott: As it turns out you and I go back a ways. In fact, we have an email thread dating to July 2013 when I received my first note from you. If you don’t mind, I’d like to quote from that because this email thread is really fascinating, the experiences that you’ve had. You wrote:

“First, I want to say I’ve been following your blog for a few years now. I really can’t express in email how much it’s meant to me. Of course, you’ve posted a tremendous amount of insight and information without which I and other writers would be lost. There’s also a celebration of movies and creativity unlike any other blog out there.

“Most importantly, there’s the motivation you’re continually doling out to us hungry dreamers. People like you, John August, and Craig Mazin are my screenwriting mentors and the best teachers I could have ever asked for.”

First of all, thanks for that. But, tell me. here you are. You write this first script and you realize, “I need to develop my chops here and understand, learn the craft as much as possible.” You were using online screenwriting resources primarily. I’m curious, how did you do that? What were they and how did you apply what you were reading online to your writing process?

Ben: I was just hungry for information, and there was very little even just five years ago. You would go to the bookstore and see these horrible books about How to Sell Your Screenplay for a Million Dollars and they’re just so incredibly unhelpful. I never read any of the screenwriting guru books because I just don’t think you can approach art that way. But, to listen to advice from people who had been there, who are actively doing it, advice about the craft and the life, the struggle… that’s what’s helpful.

The online screenwriting advice landscape has evolved so quickly, exponentially. When I first started it seemed so esoteric, so closed off to outsiders. The business and the craft, both.

But when I found John August’s blog, Craig Mazin’s old blog which isn’t even up anymore, and your blog, suddenly it was all accessible. So I just read everything I could, listened to as many podcasts as possible about the craft, the business, the life. It was more comforting than anything, I think, just knowing that there were people out there who had done it, who had succeeded. Being able to read how they’d done it, how they overcame hurdles and accomplished milestones — that kept me going much more than any tactics or craft advice could have.

Scott: It really is a sea change. Thinking back to when I was breaking in in 1987 there were just literally a couple of screenwriting books, and that was it. It was almost impossible to get a hold of scripts, you had to literally beg agents’ assistants to get printed copies for you. Now there’s so many resources online. It’s amazing.

Ben: I know. Now it’s unlimited. Frankly, there may even be too much out there. I wouldn’t have even known who to call and beg for a script back in the day. In New York when I was growing up, they had those tables on the street where you could buy printed scripts. I don’t know if they were real or just transcripts, but I bought them as a kid, and that was pretty much all I had.

Scott: In that same email in July of 2013 you said, “And speaking of dreams, my first produced screenplay’s currently in post-production. I’m riding on cloud nine. I was on set for rehearsal, scouting, shooting. It was one of the most thrilling experiences of my life.”

That was a movie originally called The Circle, now called Bleed. The plot is described as, “Six friends blindly follow a deadly fate as they explore a burned-down prison in the woods.” How did that project come about?

Ben: Through some other work I’d done with a producer, he referred me to these guys in Atlanta who were looking to produce their first feature. They’ve been a commercial production company for a long time, wanting to do a feature film.

They found this real location, a burned-down prison in the woods outside Atlanta, and it’s just the most horrifying place you’ve ever seen. If you wanted to build a scary burned-down prison movie set, you couldn’t do it better. And there it was, completely abandoned.

They wanted to make a movie about this place. They had a treatment, we reworked it and I went and wrote the script. They cast it incredibly quickly. Shockingly quick. After all the false starts and disappointments over the years, I just took everything they said with about a five pounds of salt. They said they wanted to shoot this in May. That they were going to cast it, and work on effects, and so on. I said, “OK, sure, great.” I went to Atlanta to meet with them, and I couldn’t believe my eyes. They actually had the entire cast there, all assembled and doing a read-through. They said they were shooting next week. I couldn’t believe it.

Because they were a commercial production company, they had all their own gear. They had cranes and lights and crew and editing bays and sound, an amazing cast, and the same guys who do the makeup effects for “The Walking Dead.” It was shocking to see. They shot the thing quickly, and I think it ended up being really great.

Scott: I think I even posted a trailer on the blog, if I’m not mistaken.

Ben: Yes, that was an early trailer, and it’s since gone through a lot more post-production, more reshoots, and scoring and all that. I think distribution is right around the corner so hopefully people will get to see it soon.

Scott: So then, cut to November 2013. You sent me another email. “I’ve taken two writing assignments of late, one on spec, one paid, so, the slow but not so steady progression to professional writer is still moving forward.”

“Also, I just finished a second draft of a spec that’s been consuming me for some time, by far the script I’ve been most passionate about. I got lost in the world. Fell in love with the characters, their struggles, and their quest for redemption. I really found the animals in this one. It was definitely a case of trying to sell them my dream.” What was that script?

Ben: That was “The Inklings.”

Scott: Ah, “The Inklings.” We’re going to talk about that, because you said to me, “Scott, I hope this is a script that will really resonate with you,” and boy, were you right about that. We’ll hold off that conversation for just a little bit, but that speaks to the importance of writing something you’re passionate about, right?

Ben: Yeah, definitely. I’ve written stuff on spec for the sole purpose of trying to sell it. Something that I was kind of interested in, but mainly had my eye on the prize. And you can really just tell in the finished product. It doesn’t have that spark. So I decided — what is it you say?

Scott: Write what they’re buying, or sell them your dreams.

Ben: Yup. Sell them your dreams, and don’t be afraid to dream big too. I’ve been told by friends not to write certain scripts because either I didn’t have the rights to the underlying material, or because a script would have cost $150 million to make.

But if it gets you excited, it has the potential to be special regardless of all that stuff. “The Inklings” borrows from material I don’t have the rights to, from several authors, and it’s a massive fantasy adventure huge-budget script, but I figured at the very least I’d learn something about screenwriting and about myself by writing it, and I did both.

Scott: Then in June 2014, another email, “Just wanted to share some exciting news with you. My most recent project just landed Bruce Dern in the lead, and Peter Fonda in a smaller role. We start shooting next week, and I’ll be on set.” Now, that’s a movie called Borderland?

Ben: Yes.

Scott: What’s the story on that project?

Ben: It’s a dramatic thriller about crossing from Mexico into America, multiple storylines interweaving. There’s a heavy psychological element too. My favorite movie for a while has been Amores Perros, and I borrowed a lot from Arriaga and Innaritu for that script.

The idea of a single moment branching out into the past and the future, branching out to these characters, disparate characters, bringing them together, destroying some lives, creating new ones. Innaritu hits that structure in almost all of his movies and I think there’s something very profound about it — how we’re all connected.

So, I tried to craft something in that style with Borderland. We had a very, very small budget, but managed to get that amazing cast, and it all came together very quickly too. I started writing the script in April and we were shooting it by June. It was an incredible experience.

Scott: How did you get that project?

Ben: I’d written some stuff on spec for a producer, and he introduced me to the director, who was looking for a writer. We met, talked through the project. They already had a script but wanted to go in a different direction, so we re-broke it and I went off to write it.

Scott: It’s interesting, you’re talking about these producer connections that you had that led to this, that led to that, and then directors who had connections in getting casting and whatnot. It really speaks to the importance of networking, doesn’t it?

Ben: Yeah, I think that’s pretty much all it’s about. It’s about relationships.

You have to perform well, and you have to write well, and you have to be dedicated and driven. But you absolutely have to cultivate relationships. If you meet someone, connect with them, and end up working for them, and they like what you’ve done, you’ve just opened another 20 potential doors. You have to keep nourishing those relationships and hope they lead to something productive.

Of course the problem is that up to that point you have to do a lot of writing for free. There’s no way around it. And that means working on a lot of projects that will probably never reach fruition. You have to write a lot of scripts for yourself that will never be made and do a lot of “work” for others that will never pay. And you have to reconcile yourself to that.

As long as a script leads to something though, as long as it improves your craft, or gets you in the door with someone, it was worthwhile. You have to look at your screenplay as a work of art in itself and be happy and satisfied with that. If you don’t you’ll drive yourself crazy.

Scott: To that last point, you put your money where your mouth was when you wrote me a couple months after Borderland wrapped. You said, “I submitted two scripts to the Nicholl Fellowship this year and both advanced to the quarterfinals. Fingers crossed. Send me some juju, some creative juju,” which I did.

One of those scripts was “Earthwalkers,” which ended up a Nicholl finalist. Interestingly enough, after I sent you those congratulations, an agent contacted me to get in touch with you. But you told me you had already signed with Verve.

So “Earthwalkers” was a finalist, and “The Inklings,” which we talked about earlier made the top 50. So, maybe you can walk us through that whole Nicholl experience.

Ben: It was incredible. I still can’t believe I got that call. First of all, I thought if either of those scripts had a chance, it would be “The Inklings,” because I was just neck deep in it at that time, and it was a really emotional experience for me, writing it. I think I was most surprised about “Earthwalkers” making it because after I wrote that script, I paid for coverage from a couple of readers — and the feedback was not positive. [laughs] They completely eviscerated the script. It was painful. So, needless to say I wasn’t confident.

That exact same draft made the Nicholl finals. So there you have it. Finding success in competitions is very much about getting lucky and getting the right readers.

After the quarterfinal notification, they sent out two judges’ comments per script. I think last year was the first year they did that. So, I sent those comments to a mentor I’d met at a screenwriting convention, a successful writer — who I won’t name — and asked if he’d mind sending them and my script to any agents he knew. I figure I had enough capital for one favor, so I cashed it in.

He sent them out to a few agents and Adam Weinstein at Verve really responded. I signed with him right away. So, in a way, the quarterfinals were really the most important step for me in the competition.

Scott: Verve is a great agency.

Ben: They’ve been amazing.

Scott: Then in February of this year, as we’re tracking the arc of your career, you sent me this note, “I wanted to write and share some good news. I just landed my first studio-writing gig. The last few months have been a whirlwind. I’m walking on clouds. Thank you again for always inspiring and motivating us writers.” That project is called “Doctors,” right?

Ben: Yes.

Scott: That’s at 20th Century Fox. It’s based on a graphic novel from Dash Shaw who is pretty well acclaimed as a comic creator. And, David Goyer is producing the project. I did a little research and it looks like Fox picked it up in October 2014. You wrote me in February 2015. I am guessing this was an open writing assignment, one a lot of writers were pursuing?

Ben: I believe so. I didn’t really want to know anything about who I was going up against, I never do. [laughs] The only person you can compete in these things with is yourself. So I just told myself this is my shot, I have to put together the best pitch I can and deliver it, and just hope they like it.

Scott: What was that process like? Do you remember how long the pitch was, how comprehensive it was?

Ben: It was very comprehensive. I have a hard time figuring out all the things I want to talk about in a pitch if I don’t really break a detailed story. So, my pitches tend to be on the long side.

After the Nicholl, I met with Fox in my first round of generals and they mentioned the project. I read the comic and was blown away by it. It’s dark and eerie and complex, and hits on some very fascinating themes. Difficult and fascinating, not standard popcorn movie fare. I spent about a month putting my take together and it ended up being about 25 minute pitch. It’s about doctors who discover a way to tap into people’s afterlives.

Scott: Meeting David Goyer too, that must have been quite exciting.

Ben: It was amazing. It was nerve-wracking as hell. I pitched my take to Fox and then to David. And he’s just incredible. He made me feel comfortable, which I really needed. [laughs] And throughout the entire process he’s just been a real champion, and his feedback is brilliant. He and Kevin Turen, the president of his company, they’re both truly brilliant creatively.

Scott: So, last month I get an email from you, “My draft on ‘Doctors’ went great. And, more good news — I just sold another pitch!” That pitch is still under wraps. Can you talk about that at this point?

Ben: I can’t yet, unfortunately. But I’m dying to. It’s an idea that’s been percolating in my mind for a long time, so I’m beyond thrilled that someone took an interest in it.

Scott: Literally in two years’ time, with this email chain that we’ve got going, you’ve gone from watching your first small budget movie being produced in Atlanta to making the Nicholl finals, landing a studio writing assignment, then selling a pitch. It’s pretty remarkable. Do you pinch yourself at some times and go, “Wow, is this really happening?”

Ben: Pretty much every day.

Scott: I know this is a big question, but are there any lessons you sort of learned along the way in this upward move in your career?

Ben: Just that you have to keep writing and never stop. I always worked as hard as possible, even when I had 40-hour-a-week job, which didn’t allow for much time. Just find a way to write. I would bring my laptop on the bus in New York and write for 20 minutes on my way to work every morning. Then again on the way home. And at lunch too.

I snuck Final Draft onto my work computer and got a screen-guard so no one would see what I was doing. [laughs] Other than that, just establish relationships and nurture them. Of course you have to get lucky too. I think the Nicholl was luck for me, but I really believe you can put yourself in a position to get lucky by honing your craft and by working as hard as possible.

Scott: That’s right. The Nicholl wouldn’t have happened if you had not written those two scripts on spec.

Ben: You have to work hard, write what excites you and hope it’s good enough to catch someone’s eye.

Scott: Let’s talk about your other Nicholl script, “The Inklings,” which I read and really enjoyed. When you said you thought it might be right up my alley. Literally just the other day, I was talking to someone about Charles Williams because “All Hallows Eve” is one of my favorite novels, I am a huge Tolkien fan, and I’ve read a bunch of C.S. Lewis, so I know about that group of writers who called themselves The Inklings.

Ben: Well, I already know you’re a fan — and I haven’t mentioned this yet, but I actually got the idea for this script from your blog.

Scott: Seriously!?

Ben: It was a few Halloweens ago, you wrote something about “All Hallows Eve” and Charles Williams and The Inklings. I had never heard of them. I obviously knew Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, but I didn’t know Charles Williams, and I didn’t know that all these writers were friends and colleagues.

I read that on your blog and immediately thought, “Wait, what if there was something to that.” The greatest fantasy writers of the 20th century were all connected. What if they shared a secret? What if they had access to some secret realm where they drew their stories from? That’s basically where the seed of the script came from. So thank you for that!

Scott: Wow, that’s great. I am so happy to hear that. So, here’s the plot summary of “The Inklings”: “When aspiring writer J.R.R. Tolkien’s wife disappears after a WWII air raid, he and his friends must venture through a mysterious gateway to another realm to save her, battling the creatures that will secretly haunt and inspire them for the rest of their lives.”

I was going to ask you what the inspiration was and you answered it. My blog. First of all, there is a little bit of Shakespeare in Love in this story, that sort of thing where these events which happen, while real, in this case of hyper-real life, the writers then used to populate and inhabit their stories. How did you get to that kind of narrative idea?

Ben: Well, I knew I wanted to establish the idea that these guys had access to another realm. So, starting at that point I thought, OK, what would they use that place for? What would it want from them? The story took shape from those questions. But yeah, it made it equally easier and more challenging to have a framework to drive toward. They had all written these books, so I was trying to invent the worlds that would one day inspire their writing.

Scott: Much of the story, it’s quite charming in detailing the connections of this group, The Inklings. It’s a group of writers that get together in a pub in Oxford once a week for 40 years. Did you enjoy researching that?

Ben: I loved it. I read a ton about them all. I read Tolkien’s “Complete Letters” and a lot of C.S. Lewis’s correspondence. I read a biography written in the ’70s about The Inklings and their relationships, and it was wonderful. Tolkien and Lewis actually hated each other at first, and then grew to be great friends. So, the seed of a great relationship arc already existed in real life, and that made the script a lot of fun to write.

They were also such interesting people. Lewis was a fervent atheist when he was young, then he became a devout Christian. Tolkien really faced a lot of demons fighting in WWI. Charles Williams actually believed in ghosts. There’s so much rich history there that researching it was a ton of fun. By the time I’d read everything and taken my notes, the script just poured out of me.

Scott: In the script, there’s this portal that Tolkien discovers. It occurred to me, I was wondering where the inspiration for that came from. I’ve read a lot about Tolkien as well. Some things I’ve read suggest that Middle Earth and everything he invented was a whole world that he inhabited in his imagination. “The Lord of the Rings” really was more of a result of having in a way ‘lived’ in that world. It’s a lot like he was setting out to write this book — but more that he felt like he needed to, I guess, codify what he was imagining in Middle Earth.

I was wondering whether that was the jump for you. Like here’s this sort of supernatural gateway he discovers and the city really was more about that incredible direct connection that he had with Middle Earth.

Ben: Definitely. He devoted his entire life to a universe that he created. Pretty much every book he wrote was a deeper exploration of it. He once said, “I did not invent Middle Earth. I discovered it.” And when you read quotes like that, they really get your imagination going. In his writing he really is sort of unearthing this history of another universe that already seems to exist. That’s what was so fascinating about it to me. And that’s also what made it so fluent to adaptation.

Scott: Then there’s this central narrative element which is his wife who gets taken away. I think you detailed that relationship quite lovingly. Then you’ve got this wonderful fantasy, action-adventure story where Tolkien and his Inkling cohorts end up going into this other realm to save her.

That’s tricky because you have these parallel worlds. And you have a lot of plot elements going on, on the other side in that fantasy realm. How challenging was that for you to plot all these stuff out?

Ben: It was pretty challenging. I think that the basic premise was the hardest to arrive at though. Once I got that, then it all sort of fell into place. I wanted to create strong parallels between World War II and the War of the Ring. I wanted it to be an origin story of “The Lord of the Rings”. Most importantly, I wanted the script to be about the conflicts of an aspiring artist.

I’d just gotten married when I started writing the script. And I was thinking, pretty much on a daily basis, that this is what I love to do and it’s my dream, and I don’t think I could be happy doing anything else. I’ve never held down a day job for longer than a few years, mainly because I give my heart and soul to writing.

So, what happens if I am not successful? I’m not single anymore, I suddenly have to think about the big picture. A family, responsibility, maybe not indulging in a selfish pursuit anymore. I was seriously worried I’d never get a shot, almost paralyzed by it. So, I basically infused all those fears into Tolkien’s character.

He finds this world. He becomes obsessed with it, with exploring it as deeply as possible. He falls in love around the same time though, gets married, and has a child. He’s losing his family to his obsession, giving himself to this other world. He’s becoming detached. So, his wife investigates. What’s the source of this obsession?

She finds his portal, and she crosses over to see it. But while she’s there, Nazi planes bomb the city and the portal is destroyed. When Tolkien sifts through the ruins, all he finds is her gold wedding ring. He holds onto it, and it basically beckons him to find a way back to the other side to find her.

So, he literally lost his wife to his writing, his ambition. And, his journey from that point on is about finding her, going into the story and rescuing her. And while he’s on that journey he comes to terms with the uncertainties of the artist’s life and realizes the ultimate truth, that there’s nothing more powerful than love.

Scott: There’s a great quote that you have, actually several, like an homage to writing, a real ode to the writer’s life. There’s one where Tolkien is talking to The Inklings, trying to encourage them, saying they need to go into this other world.

He says, “What waits for you back home, war, famine? Or worse, routine? You’re writers, for the love of God. You dream for a living. Charles, you write of ghosts and demons. Well, here you can walk with them. And you, Jack,” — talking to C.S. Lewis — “you speak of these great chronicles you wish to pen. Where will you do it? Back home in that shadow world? Don’t you see? In this world, your dreams can live.”

When you hear those words, what goes through your mind?

Ben: That classic It’s a Wonderful Life theme of always wanting something more, always wanting to go somewhere else, somewhere bigger, somewhere brighter. And not necessarily knowing that everything you need is right there in front of you.

At the end of the script, Tolkien realizes that routine that, at this point, he’s pretty much lambasting, he realizes the beauty in accepting those little things in everyday life, and that’s where real inspiration comes from. It doesn’t come from some other place, some manufactured, artificial place that exists in your dreams. It comes from everyday life, from the people you surround yourself with. Writing that, and landing on that message, was really cathartic for me.

Scott: And you set that up early on when a young C. S. Lewis says to Tolkien, “Your life is the greatest story you’ll ever write. Don’t waste a single word.”

Ben: That’s the message I tried to convey, and I wanted it to be as concise as possible. Of course, it takes the whole movie before Tolkien actually ends up believing it.

Scott: So, Tolkien marries Edith. And he wins her love early on, but it’s a challenge right? She has a plan laid out for her life, which is that she’s got to marry a certain person, a businessman, not a writer. You’ve got an interesting interchange there between them where Tolkien says, “Each choice in life is a signpost pointing the way to turn, nothing more. And at the end, all those turns add up to a single destination.”

And he basically paints a picture of her future life, where she’s married to the wrong person, and basically lived the wrong life, “living in the grey,” essentially a mundane life. “60 years living in the grey,” Tolkien says, “living someone else’s life, and all because of one wrong turn.” Then Edith says, “Very clever, John, but you’ll recall I’ve always wanted a quiet life.”

Tolkien says, “But not the wrong life.” Which recalls that great quote from Joseph Campbell, “What if a person climbs the ladder to success but then discovers when they get to the top, they’ve been climbing on the wrong wall?”

I’m wondering if that speaks to your own choices where you could’ve gone down the safer path of a non-artistic or a non-creative lifestyle, but you chose to pursue this other path.

Ben: I don’t think it was conscious choice, but it definitely resonates for me. My entire adult life I’ve been living in this state of existential crisis of, “I don’t think I have what it takes to devote myself to something other than the arts.” So basically, either I’ll make it or I’ll be damned.

Then I realized that, like Tolkien at the end of the movie, whether you’re successful or not, it’s not important. That’s not what defines you. It’s the choices you make, the people you love, and the chances you take. That’s what defines you. But yeah, unlike Edith, I was determined not to take the wrong turn. No matter what, I wasn’t going to leave anything on the table. I wasn’t going to live the wrong life.

Scott: I’m pulling one last quote from the script where Lewis is talking to Tolkien and he says, “A story is not a document. It’s a search for something, a need for something. It’s not just wonder. It’s what you strive for in the face of that wonder that defines you. That is a life. That is writing.”

Ben: Tolkien is obsessed with going into this world and finding out everything he can about it. He doesn’t realize until the end that great art doesn’t really come from the world outside you. It comes from within. The stuff that’s outside can inform you and it can help shape your views. But real inspiration and meaning, they have to come from inside you.

Scott: You handled the characters so well, and it’s a fun, exciting adventure. It occurs to me, Ben, you may be the perfect person to take on these projects — I’ve long wanted to see two novels from The Inklings adapted into movies: “All Hallows Eve” which we talked about by Charles Williams which is just a terrific novel. And are you familiar with the Space Trilogy by C. S. Lewis?

Ben: No, I’m not.

Scott: He wrote a science fiction trilogy. “The Silent Planet,” “Perelandra,” but the last one, “That Hideous Strength,” which you could do on its own, is really excellent. Put those on your little to-do list to check out. “That Hideous Strength.” It’s constructed like a movie. It’s got crosscuts from various subplots. It’s really interesting. I think it could be adapted to a contemporary setting very well. After reading your script, I was like, “Well, this is the guy. Ben should do these two.”

Ben: Wow, thank you so much. I’m writing it down now! “All Hallows Eve” I read for research for on “The Inklings” and I loved it. I used a bit of it too in the script. I loved the idea of a plane crashing in London, and the ghost who died in the crash walking the streets, not realizing she’s dead. The plane crash in the script that destroys Tolkien’s portal was inspired by that.

Scott: T.S. Eliot had said he thought Charles Williams was the greatest English language novelist of his time.

Ben: I remember reading that. His stories are so haunting, and I think that’s because he was haunted, personally. The darkness, the curiosity too, really come through.

Scott: I’d love to ask you some craft questions.

Ben: Sure.

Scott: How do you come up with story ideas?

Ben: Oh boy, I don’t know. I don’t really sit down and try to think of story ideas. But, when they come to me I jump on them. I can’t really say that I know how it happens. Maybe I’ll read something, some news event, some strange story. I’ll say, “Wait, what if this happened instead…” then extrapolate from there.

“Earthwalkers,” for example, it’s about two characters cursed in the Bible to walk the Earth forever. So I thought, “OK, if you believe that’s true, what would they be up to today? Well, one of them might be wracked with guilt, trying to redeem himself for his sin. The other might be completely insane and indulgent. He might hate life so much that he wants to end the world and free himself from his curse. So, what if we pit them against each other?”

That’s sometimes how it happens. A theme, a seed, a historical event. I’ll stew on that stuff and basically try to build a story from there.

Scott: How do you go about assessing these ideas? It sounds like it’s probably a pretty intuitive thing.

Ben: When you talk about writing for the market or following your dream, I think you obviously have to follow your dream, but not to the point where you shut yourself out of the market.

I’ve got a ton of ideas that are just not at all commercial, very Charlie Kaufman-type stuff. A lot of play ideas too. I’m going to tackle them one day, but now I’m focusing a bit more on the ideas that I know the market is a little more open to. I absolutely have to be excited about them though, that’s always a requirement.

If there’s a character at the center of a story that I connect with, that’s all I need to get me going. Theme is big for me too. If I can look at the DNA of an idea and try to build this sort of story organism out of it, that’s what I want. So I’d say character and potential for theme. More than anything though, it’s gut. If an idea excites so much that I can’t not write, then I write it.

Scott: How much time do you spend at prep writing and what do you focus on?

Ben: I do a lot of research. I don’t know if it will always come into play, depending on what the movie idea is. If it’s a sci-fi thing for example, I want to make it as realistic and grounded as possible. So I’ll do as much research as I can. Same if it’s something historical like “The Inklings.” I’ll read about their lives and the context of their world as much as I can.

Then when I’ve got this giant hodge-podge of notes, I sort of go through it, organize it, and put it all together and try to build my characters and story from there. Research isn’t just to construct a world around the story though. Most of the time, it’s what actually builds the story for me. I’ll read some tidbit, and that will make me want to take the story in a certain direction.

Scott: You mentioned characters. How do you go about developing them?

Ben: I generally think about motivation most of all. What do they want, what do they lack? From there, I think you can pretty much build everything. Come up with their backstory, what got them to this point in life. How do they see the world? Then, what constitution do they have as they progress forward to achieve their goal.

I also want to identify with my characters. So I guess I’ll sort of unconsciously hone in on some aspect of my own personality that I can infuse into a character. I always want to connect fundamentally with them.

Scott: That’s interesting because that’s one of the things I always tell people when they’re going through their story ideas. Like, “What should I write?” I’ll say, “Well, what’s your point of emotional connection to the story? Do you have one? And if so, how strong is it?”

Ben: It’s critical, I think. Without it, you’re just sort of writing from the outside in. If you really want to be in the story enough to explore the world, you have to feel like it’s a part of you in there doing the exploring.

Otherwise, you’re not going to be afraid when your character is afraid. You’re not going to be satisfied when your character is satisfied. I don’t really like to lean on the mechanics of storytelling. I write mainly based on emotion.

A big way to connect emotionally to a story for me is music. I listen to it all the time when I write. I have different playlists for each project and they really put me in the mood of the movie, and sometimes even the time period. When I’m writing and I hear a musical phrase that captures an emotion, I try to think about what that emotion is, and what’s the best way to try to recreate it and evoke it in the script.

For “The Inklings,” I listened to a lot of fantasy movie scores. The most important piece of music for it was from “Willow,” the main theme. It’s beautiful. There’s a moment that’s just bursting with hope and beauty and triumph, and listening to it made me realize that that feeling was missing from an important scene in my script.

I listened to it over and over as I rewrote the scene and eventually crafted it so that Tolkien’s triumph on the page had the same emotional effect on me as the music itself did. Maybe it won’t evoke that same emotion for a reader, but it did for me and that’s the important thing I think. For “Earthwalkers” I listened almost exclusively to Peter Gabriel’s score for The Last Temptation of Christ. It’s incredible. So music can really be a powerful tool for discovery when I’m writing, and it’s because it sets the emotional tone.

Of course, if you’re not identifying with your characters and if you’re not fully immersed in the world of the story, then none of this really comes into play. You have to be in it, be totally invested in your characters to get to that point.

Scott: It doesn’t sound like you’re one of those writers who’s got some sort of locked down story structure. Certainly, not like a formula or anything.

Ben: Not at all. I really don’t like thinking in terms of act structure. I don’t think in terms of sequences or beats either. The only structure I’ll really think about is beginning, middle, and end. And if I know a producer or exec likes to think in terms of acts I’ll draw some arbitrary lines so I can speak their language.

Not that established structures are always bad, I just didn’t learn how to write with them so adopting them now would be awkward. I just think a story should be organic. If story doesn’t feel intuitive, then you shouldn’t try to fit it into a mold.

Scott: What about dialogue? How do you go about finding your characters’ voices?

Ben: Again, it’s a matter of immersing yourself in the character. Obviously, the world and the time, the era has a lot to do with it. But that’s the cosmetic stuff. Tolkien is in the ’20s, ’30s, and ’40s, and he’s British. So, I crafted the dialogue stylistically off of that.

When he’s younger he’s shy, maybe a little too talkative. As he gets obsessed with the realm, he retreats into himself, he gets more quiet and terse, so the dialogue is much more quiet and terse. The lines are shorter and stunted. Then by the end as an older man, he’s wiser and more confident with his words.

So I guess I try to nail down my characters’ perspective. If they’re closed off to a single point of view, make sure you don’t write from an omniscient point of view. If they’re scared, make sure they sound scared. That’s pretty much it.

Scott: That’s a really good takeaway. I haven’t quite heard a response like that from interviews, which is to be completely aware of where the character is at any given moment, in terms of their own emotional and psychological state. Have a strong awareness of that.

Ben: I think if you know the fundamentals of your character, the basics, then you can allow yourself to put them in those states, but you don’t get to that point if you haven’t fully fleshed out your character. You won’t understand who they are and what their afraid of or what they’re striving for.

Scott: You mentioned theme. Are you one of those writers who starts with themes, or do they arise in the context of developing a writing of the story?

Ben: I think I start with it more and more now. I build my story around it, I find a way to craft characters based on it, I find narrative parallels between, I guess, micro and macro plot elements based on theme. A theme doesn’t necessarily have to mean, whatever, one of the classic themes —

Scott: Love conquers all.

Ben: — Yeah, right. I remember reading that John August likes to call it DNA. Whatever the fundamental building block of the movie is. In “The Inklings” it’s ambition versus love. In “Earthwalkers,” it’s redemption. So, yeah, I think theme is very important. It informs my construction of the story, kind of like a magnet that allows various ideas to come together in the right place and in the right way.

Scott: When you’re writing a scene, do you have any specific goals in mind?

Ben: Yeah, what everyone says — make sure the scene is essential to your movie, and make sure it advances the plot. Those are obviously critical.

If you’ve got a three-page scene, you want to make sure it has an evolution, an end-point that it’s driving toward. And the end should simultaneously satisfy and leave you thirsty for more.

Scott: Let’s talk about scene description. It seems like a rather mundane topic, but on most scripts it’s probably about 60, 70 percent of what we write. Are you consciously thinking about how to craft scene description so that it’s entertaining?

Ben: Oh yeah, definitely. Not necessarily entertaining, but just… good. [laughs] A lot of scripts are minimalist now, they have a lot of white space on the page. And that can be great. But I’d rather have a few extra words in there and really understand where I am, what I’m looking at.

My background is in books as much as it is in film, so my scene description may feel a little more literary, more like prose. But, I also try to echo the tone of the movie. People talk about a screenwriter’s voice. I think a single screenplay’s voice is more important. Make me feel like I’m in this movie, completely.

“The Inklings” for example, I wrote it entirely in British English, including all the scene description. It’s minor stuff, spelling “colour” with a “u,” using British inflections and colloquialisms, but I think it’s really important for the writer to set the tone of the script, just like the production designer, DP, and director set the tone of the film.

If a room is dimmed and books are stacked against the wall and there’s sawdust on the floor and the bookshelves are sagging and candles are burning in nooks, that all colors the scene, and I want to know it. There’s definitely such a thing as too much, but I do think scene description should be as literary and cinematic as possible.

Scott: When you finish a first draft, obviously we’ve heard that writing is rewriting, and probably nowhere more relevant than screenwriting. What are some of the keys for you in terms of your rewriting process?

Ben: I think, distance. For me, putting it away for a little bit and going to something else, purging your mind of it, and going back to it with fresh eyes. I always try to get opinions from other people I trust, and it’s important to sort through notes and really have the discipline to act on the ones you know in your gut are right, even if making the changes will be a pain in the ass.

Also, learning to say no to the notes you disagree with. As long as you truly disagree with them and you’re not just making excuses. It’s hard at first to figure out the difference between disagreeing with a note and being resistant to a note. It’s daunting to go in and have to tear apart this thing that you’ve built, and then try to put it back together. Once you accept that there may be a better way to do it, you just have to trust that you’ve got the ability to accomplish it. And you just may surprise yourself and make it better in ways that weren’t obvious at first.

Scott: You described that you like to listen to music. What other aspects would describe your writing process? Do you write every day? Do you work in private, or do you go to coffee shops? How do you write?

Ben: I write every day. I work mostly in private, but I do like coffee shops occasionally. When I first started out, I loved them. I went to tons of coffee shops in New York. But, if the environment isn’t ideal then I’d rather be home.

Scott: What do you love most about writing?

Ben: Everything.

Scott: In 5 to 10 years, what’s the ideal world for Ben? Where do you see yourself?

Ben: Pretty much in the same place, but hopefully with a few more movies. I love doing adaptations. I love writing original specs. I’m curious about directing, but I like working in my pajamas too much I think.

Scott: Finally, I get a lot of email. Frankly, as I was preparing for this, I just went and checked last night, and I’ve got over 100,000 emails from my blog account. But just about every week or so, I’ll get something from a writer with good news. They’ve won a contest, or they landed a manager, sold a pitch or something. It’s nice they take time to drop me a line to let me know about how the blog has been part of their process, but I don’t think I’ve ever had anything quite like our ongoing conversation over a period of two years.

As I was going through it again, Ben, it’s just amazing to me, it’s like literally tracking the major plot points in your evolving screenwriting career! So, my last question for you, after you’ve been through all this that you’ve gone through, this is a question I’m sure you’re going to be asked dozens and dozens of times in your career. What advice can you offer to aspiring screenwriters about learning a craft and breaking into Hollywood?

Ben: Learning the craft, I would say read all the great resources that are out there now, all the blogs that we’ve talked about, including yours, take advantage of them. They’re really a form of mentorship, a type of film school. Obviously, you can’t walk up to your professor at the end of the class and say thank you, though, so that’s why I wanted to write to you, just to say to you thank you at least, and let you know how much you’ve helped keep me informed and, honestly, motivated.

It’s comforting to know that there are struggles, even for the most successful screenwriters. That it was never an easy path. That’s the kind of thing that gives you a little added fuel to keep writing on a bad day, and keep hoping that maybe one day someone will notice.

Also, watch movies and read scripts, really read a lot of scripts. I don’t do this enough. And, of course, just write as much as humanly possible. Write a ton and give it to people who are better than you for feedback. That’s the only way to learn.

Scott: Well, this has been fantastic. I’ve enjoyed talking with you. You just strike me as a really sharp guy, creative, right in the pocket of where you need to be.

Ben: Thank you so much, Scott. It’s so exciting to talk to you and thank you again, genuinely, thank you so much for the blog. It really means a lot to us all.

Since I began teaching as a hobby in 2001, I’ve worked with well over a thousand of writing students, many of whom have gone onto success in the film and television business. There are also countless writers who have been “students” of Go Into The Story and like Ben Jacoby, many work as Hollywood screenwriters and TV writers.

The subject line of the very first email Ben sent me in 2013: “Thank you for helping my dream come true.” Little did Ben know where his dreams would take him from the humble start of an ultra low-budget film to a Hollywood writing career.

It gives me great joy to contribute however I can to writers achieving their own dreams, either as a university professor at the DePaul University School of Cinematic Arts, a teacher through Screenwriting Master Class, or via Go Into The Story.

For 100s of other Go Into The Story interviews with screenwriters and filmmakers, go here.